Disappointed in Larian (2024)

Disappointed in Larian

I'm coming here to the forums because trying to have similar discussions on reddit has led to me being overwhelmed with downvotes because people seem to not understand the point I am trying to make and immediately jump to calling me an entitled crybaby begging for DLC. I've never once made any comment about the fact that there aren't going to be any expansions or sequels for the game coming from Larian, as that isn't something I ever expected.

All I'm trying to open discussion about is the fact that it's incredibly upsetting to see that Larian so suddenly decided to stop making substantial updates to the game and move on to their next project. Since the launch of BG3, Larian has done a beyond amazing job of responding to all sorts of player feedback and making updates to the game to help turn it into the best version of itself that it can possibly be. This is why I'm so baffled by their sudden heel-turn of saying "Well we're done with the game and burnt out on it so we're going to explore our next projects". It's incredibly frustrating to see the developers' passion for the game suddenly fly out the window in the way it did. I don't understand how voicing my criticism some parts of the game makes me entitled in the way that some people are saying I am. I've never once made an unreasonable request like "Please add a path where I can turn Wyll into a bad guy" or "Let me have the Chosen Three as romance options and companions if I'm being evil". All I've ever wanted was for Larian to keep making tweaks here and there to the heavily criticized parts of the game as they have been for months. They went out of their way to record whole new dialogue and create the epilogue party, so why would they call it quits on the game without smoothing out the other problems (ie. the massive lack of dialogue and scenes for Karlach, Wyll, Halsin, and Minthara, especially compared to Astarion and Shadowheart)?

I'd ask that if anybody responds to this thread they don't turn it into a place where people start hating on Larian. I've noticed that whenever people bring up sentiments similar to mine it always becomes a conversation where people call Larian a terrible company that makes bad games. This game is my favorite piece of media I've ever consumed, which is why I'm simply so passionate about it. I know that for the longest time, the developers were incredibly passionate about it too, so I just wish they would give us some answers on exactly why things changed when they were so close to the finish line...

Re: Disappointed in Larian

HenryDoughnut#94456704/07/24 05:00 PM

Hey, I support you, and I definitely get how certain spaces can be overwhelming if they just keep hating on you. And I also get not wanting the thread to turn into Larian hate, I've also noticed the same thing and it stresses me out a bit, so I'd say we're in the same lane. I also love BG3 and massively respect Larian, while also thinking the game has some major issues.

You're absolutely right that the massive lack of dialogue and scenes for those companions is a bit egregious. Particularly for Wyll. In Minthara's case it's embarrassing that her romance spent so long being broken, but in terms of content I can kind of understand she's not meant to be as in-depth as other characters. I think the lack of polish in Act 3 is the thing that needed the most fixing.

Unfortunately, it's also the thing that would take the most work. It's a big flaw, but I think it'd take them a lot of resources to fix it without making it a DLC or GOTY Edition and the like. And I also get that they're burnt out. It's a shame, and it sucks extra hard as a fan because you know this game could *truly* be something really special if the ending wasn't so rushed.

In truth, there are so many flawed games that are just flawed forever. Larian probably decided to just let it be, and as fans we can't help but be disappointed that that's how this otherwise really good game is going to stay forever, because I guess we've grown accustomed to hoping for the best from Larian.

I definitely get both sides but I'm sad so many things are clearly rushed or unfinished/scrapped, particularly towards the ending.

Re: Disappointed in Larian

HenryDoughnut#94457004/07/24 07:17 PM

A little bit of personal context : I bought the game in october 2020 in EA, now have 1450+ hours of playtime, 4 completely fginished PT"s and numerous unfinished ones.

I also was disappointed after the announcement that there would be no DLC or definitive edition at all. There are so many wonderful possibilities for DLC's. But I turned that page now. We will only be able to judge if this was a sad point in gaming history after Larian's next game comes out. Hopefully we can say then that it was a good decision to not linger on BG3 and start immediately with the creation of a new and even better game. But , I guess this will only be around 3 years or so from now at the earliest.

My last, 4th, PT that I recently finished was the first one where I added a fair amount of mods. The party limit override, the hireling creation mod, so I could now try out all the different classes I hadn't done yet in one big party, and also see more banter between the different NPC's on the way. Also some fun NSFW outfit mods to generate a more Conan-pulp/Frank Frazetta style phantasy art visuals.
So I think the next patch, with official modding support might still give some nice expansions to redo that so-manieth playthrough including some new and exciting stuff.

As to speculation why Larian made this decision, it seems obvious that there was some kind of malaise or frustration within the development/test and general personnel . We could wonder what part Wizards of the Coast played in this. Swen Vyncke himself said that when the game was out, there was almost no one left from the original WoTC team with whom they had set up the game .

So maybe it is for the best, but we'll only know that in a couple of years, I guess.

Re: Disappointed in Larian

HenryDoughnut#94457104/07/24 07:17 PM

Re: Disappointed in Larian

HenryDoughnut#94457304/07/24 07:51 PM

I think the farthest I would delve into being angry at Larian is that I must admit I’m now scared about their next game. If they really are leaving BG3 as a game that is phenomenal, but nevertheless a bit disappointing because it could have been even more phenomenal, I worry about them doing the same thing in the future. Would they experience the same burnout on their next game and move on from it before fully cleaning up everything that needs to be addressed? I would certainly hope not because of the fact that Larian went back to make definitive/enhanced editions of DOS I and DOS II.

Really digging into the situation really makes me believe that despite comments from Swen attempting to smooth things over, something went VERY wrong behind the scenes with the collaboration between Larian and Wotc. There’s a huge amount of whiplash that comes from Larian suddenly going from “we don’t know if we have enough steam to make a new story right now, but we are excited to pump out more patches to improve the experience of the game” to “we’ve relinquished the IP and there’s no new content coming that we haven’t already begun working on”. Ultimately, the saddest thing is that because DnD is an IP Larian doesn’t control, they don’t have any decision in making some sort of Definitive edition because the game isn’t theirs anymore. As is, the stories as they are will fester in some vault for a while at Hasbro until somebody decides that they can be brought back to earn a profit.

Re: Disappointed in Larian

HenryDoughnut#94457404/07/24 07:51 PM

The thing is, we can't say for sure that they did these post-release updates out of passion for the game. It could be that their only motivation was simply trying to appease fans and work on feedback.

Given the state of their development cycle, one can easily wonder if they ran out of passion during their work on Act 2, what with Act 3's myriad of problems.

As such it's not possible to say with any level of certainty that their passion had "Flown out the window" at the point they ceased major development post-release. What with it being possible (If not likely) that their passion had long since been gone and they just reached the point where it was too undesirable to continue working for free on a "Finished" product (That had already netted them a plethora of awards) and they instead decided to work on their next projects that they are actually passionate about.

Since when it comes to making updates to parts of the game, they can go on for literally years and years making lots of adjustments to make the game as perfect as possible (As we saw with Act 1 in EA, 3 years of taking on feedback and making updates to that singular Act). At some point they have to decide enough is enough, especially given that these updates don't earn them any money as they're released for free. Meaning even if they DID want to perfect the game with updates they'd eventually be forced to stop in order to work on projects that will generate revenue.

When it comes to it, I find it hard to fault Larian for stopping when they did. In my mind it's a miracle that they went as far as they did post-release. It's not often developers bother to patch things post-release and rarer still to have multiple patches.

Sure, it sucks for fans of the game that wanted Larian to go that little bit further to polish out this or that. But at the end of the day, they're not only a business which needs to put resources into things that generate revenue. But they're also a group of people, people who've been working on the game for the better part of a decade, one can imagine the burn out such an endeavor can provide ESPECIALLY in the light of other projects being scheduled that are far more appealing than doing the millionth tweak on a game that's been your only project for so long.

Re: Disappointed in Larian

Taril#94457804/07/24 08:31 PM

I know CD Project Red did many, many updates with Witcher 3, and even updating the oldest Witcher games recently. It is a business strategy, as it will put the game company in a very good light, making it easier to sell future games. "See how much they care, we will be sure to get a good product from them. If not now then eventually." Also the massive comeback on Cyberpunk. Seeing it in comparison, I think Larian may do themselves a disservice by stopping now when they have so many things unfinished and unpolished in BG3.
But ofcourse I just want more of a good game, so easy for me to say.

Re: Disappointed in Larian

HenryDoughnut#94457904/07/24 08:43 PM

Unfortunately I feel the same way.

It's no secret that BG3 was rushed out early to the general public because of how many unfinished and broken aspects still remain months after release, but I was hopeful that over time Larian would slowly be filling in all the gaps and lack of content to make up for it, because the game's foundation is phenomenal despite being unfinished. However the lack of care & motivation became clear to me months before the announcements even came due to how many aspects were still completely unfinished and broken, despite the constant community feedback for years.

• The game still doesn't have any evil endings.
• The evil path itself got completely abandoned very early in development, which is why all evil choices just lead to story content being cut while following the exact same path as the good playthrough.
• Trying to side with the evil parties; Sazza, the Duergar, Nere, Kar'niss, Marcus, Dark Urge's gnolls, Balthazar, Ketheric, Gortash, Absolute... all vanish permanently, leading absolutely nowhere.
• Minthara - the way she's treated is worse than any Greek tragedy. Despite the constant community feedback ever since Early Access about her lackluster and buggy story, she is still completely ignored and left to gather dust as the most broken and unfinished companion of them all. Without going into too much detail here because her issues are NUMEROUS, my signature below has all her issues documented.
• Halsin - in a somewhat similar situation as Minthara since he shares some of her issues, however he actually does get consistency improvements through patches (was going to write a compendium of issues for him as well, but alas saw no point anymore once the announcements were made).
• Karlach and Wyll - due to their rushed rewrites got entangled together, which ended up doing a disservice to both characters by neither carrying any real weight throughout the story anymore. Karlach in particular went from being her own interesting character with clearly established bloodthirsty motives and goals, to a cuddly rom-com buddy sidekick that just feels like fanservice without any real objectives. Her quest is literally just two metal pieces so she can touch people, so if she's not romanced her story is even less than that, which is why I always romance her to at least get something out of her story.
• Wyll - also went from an interesting character with a clear objective and vendetta to pursue and rescue Mizora (who was captured by the Absolute), to a buddy sidekick tagging along with Mizora popping in and out from time to time in order to rescue... who? Oh right, herself from the Absolute.
• Gortash and Orin as endgame villains carry no weight at all in comparison to Ketheric Thorm. Both ACT I and ACT II are entirely related to Ketheric and his history, which allows his character to truly shine and feel like a meaningful threatening presence throughout the game. Unfortunately the same can't be said for Gortash and Orin, as the first one is restricted to his tiny little portion of a castle and isn't even interested in being a villain, whereas Orin is a deranged lunatic that pops into existence a couple of times in early ACT III and then buggers off for the entirety of the ACT.
• Majority of ACT III stuff feels completely disjointed from each other and in most cases doesn't even lead anywhere (like saving Hope and Korilla), which should not be the case in an ACT that is supposed to be wrapping everything up. Several quests also completely break their sequence and spoil stuff if one does not follow a specific path for these quests.
• Story consistency is also lacking, in ACT III especially but even in early game. The Dark Urge for example uses the same generic lines about tadpole insertion through the eye, despite not having it inserted on the Nautiloid. Orin not once acknowledges Minthara being in the party despite being her own personal tormentor, the main character does not recognize Tara despite talking to Gale about her etc. Several Early Access outdated lines are still in the game, including a very old line from Early Access about the Absolute being a male.
• Numerous bugs that break quests from progressing, but more importantly bugs from Early Access still persist despite being reported by hundreds of people over the last 12 months.

Basically the majority of content that was outside the scope of Early Access, turned out to be very limited in terms of story, with plenty being rushed and inconsistently messy.

All in all it's sad for me to see such a wonderful game mistreated and uncared for so quickly, especially seeing how much preferential treatment went into it when half of it is missing and not even working properly, so at this point I'm just waiting to see what the upcoming September mega update brings in terms of story and consistency, but I honestly don't expect much at this point (not even for Minthara) despite this update focusing on the evil endings. Disappointed is a massive understatement to be honest ^^

Re: Disappointed in Larian

KiraMira#94458104/07/24 09:16 PM

Yeah... But the thing to realise is people already considered BG3 good out of the gate. Even before all the patches that fixed things up, it won many GotY awards and still gets more awards as time goes on (Even with all the many unfinished and unpolished aspects).

Something like Cyberpunk was a disaster on launch. CDPR needed to overhaul the game just to make it sell decently, let alone start being actually good. Same for No Man's Sky and Fallout 76. Both were utter garbage on launch and needed additional work to create a product people actually wanted.

When a game flops on release, there's more leeway to spend extra time working on it to get it into a state where it can earn money. With BG3, it knocked it out of the park upon release and won many awards. Thus there's far less reason to keep working on it because it's not as if it's considered a bad product and needs to work to sell in numbers. BG3 sold well and the patches and work put into it afterwards was gravy to help satisfy the fanbase.

And also "Making it easier to sell future games" is a strange point, since you know what also makes it easier to sell future games? Actually making those future games. Which is the crux of the issue. Yes, Larian could try and spend the next 30 years patching in and adding to BG3 until it is "Complete" and perfect... But realistically they have to move on at some point.

Just like Cyberpunk 2077 has stopped its updates to work on their next title in the series, despite also having lots of unfinished and unpolished aspects. CDPR have moved all developers away from patching it and instead are making their new game so that the new game can come out and people can buy their new game and play their new game (Ideally, with it launching not as complete trash like CP2077)

That's just how things work. Games are never patched until perfection, no matter how good they are or how much people want it. There's simply a point where it is necessary to move on to a different project, either for monetary reasons or simply because it can be soul draining to be leashed into tweaking the same project forever...

Re: Disappointed in Larian

HenryDoughnut#94458204/07/24 09:18 PM

Re: Disappointed in Larian

Taril#94458304/07/24 09:40 PM

Well, true. You could say Larian did a good strategy by doing the game by Acts. Everyone saw/played Act 1 on release, and Act 1 is finished, polished, pretty good. Act 3 was not finished, more like the disaster of Cyberpunk, but few players saw it and complained. It took me a long time to get there, it's a long game.
Games will never be perfect no, but leaving when it clearly needs just a little more love to be close to as good as Act 1 in all the Acts are good reasons to be a bit disappointed. I can only speak for me, and for me Larian went from the company to watch for to a company to wait with buying their games. For me CDPR is also in that catagory because of Cyberpunks bad release (it was in the never buy anything from them again, but seeing them commiting with Patches to bring it back changed my impression of them). I think how well a company treat their games (and in the process their players) will have an impact on game sales, I don't see what's so strange about that.

Re: Disappointed in Larian

KiraMira#944603Yesterday at 11:02 AM

Which is odd. Since this isn't new for Larian.

Divinity 2 also suffered from the exact same affliction. Act 1 is super polished and amazing (Thanks to extended development during Early Access). But then the later Acts are kind of rushed and unfinished, even with a "Definitive Edition" for extra work on the game the later acts pale in comparison to the polish and depth of Act 1.

It's simply a product of Larian's development process. Their nature of having Act 1 in Early Access and spending a majority of the game's development time on this act to address feedback from EA always ends up with the same result. Act 1 is polished and amazing. But they burn out after spending so much time tweaking this single Act thus later Acts don't get anywhere near enough attention to be complete, let alone comparable to Act 1.

I honestly believe that this method of using EA and additional development time is the primary reason for the faults in Larian titles. Too much time spent on Act 1 and not enough time on other Acts. Too much tweaking of Act 1 eating away at their passion for developing the game.

Re: Disappointed in Larian

HenryDoughnut#944605Yesterday at 11:38 AM

At least there was a Definitive Edition for DOS2 which tried to fix the later act problems.

BG3 has a lot more problems than DOS2 had and instead of Larian trying to fix it dropped it like a hot stone and fled, sure in the knowledge that the thirsting part of the fanbase will drown out all criticism and make them win all popularity contests despite all those problems.

Re: Disappointed in Larian

Taril#944606Yesterday at 12:10 PM

Maybe you find it odd because you presume I've played a Larian game previously. When I'm saying they where a company to watch it was from my experience playing Act 1 of BG3, not Divinity 2.

Doing EA development is a dangerous game to play. Both for the devs and the players investing in the project.

Re: Disappointed in Larian

KiraMira#944608Yesterday at 01:14 PM

Even that I find odd. Forming an opinion about an entire company based off of a single Act of a single game...

Personally, I don't even form an opinion about a game itself until I've played the whole thing, let alone a company, which can have inconsistencies between titles making a single game not entirely representative of the company.

But I'm probably the odd one, given I didn't receive the standard whiplash most people faced with CDPR when Cyberpunk was released. I already knew about the companies strengths and weaknesses (Witcher 1-3 have great stories. But gameplay is not amazing, especially W1+2) and CP2077's flop didn't make me lose faith in the entire company (Especially with all the mitigating factors like the messy development cycle, the new genre and new setting)

Meaning that I know what to expect from Larian. Which is a great Act 1, an Act 2 that falls off towards the end and an Act 3 that phones it in. Hence why I'm overall sceptical of their next project which is "Larger in scope than BG3"

Aye. But at the time, players often love it. Especially when their feedback gets addressed. Which is likely why Larian did it twice. People playing in the EA's often praise them for listening to feedback and making changes addressing such feedback.

Though the outcome seems to end up the same way. Too much time on what is in EA (Especially when said EA is being sold, so they have to make it good enough to justify the price) and not enough time on the overall game.

Re: Disappointed in Larian

Taril#944610Yesterday at 01:44 PM

Well, when a single Act is as long as many games.. I think that is why I made an opinion on the company from one Act. It's freaking long. And I can't help but having opinions when playing games. This is cool, this is not, etc. I would find it odd if you felt nothing playing a game. Also opinions are not set in stone, I can change it like I did with my opinion on Larian after finishing Act 3. Now, I still love the game, but I'm a bit disappointed, much like OP.

Every game does represent the company they come from, the history and which way they will most likely take in the future. Judging them on what they make is sensible, imo.

Re: Disappointed in Larian

KiraMira#944615Yesterday at 03:14 PM

It's not that long...

Even for a first time player, talking to everyone and exploring every nook and cranny it's not particularly long as an Act... (At least in my first few runs where I did that, multiple runs still didn't end up with it being as long as a typical game)

I form opinions when playing games. But the opinions are of that particular part of the game. Not the game overall.

I don't form a generalized opinion of an overall product before experiencing the overall product. Whereby my opinions of all the individual parts of the product can be collated into the generalized overall opinion.

Not necessarily. Some games have difficulties or a different take. Maybe they had a different team or leader. An example is Dark Souls 2, it had a different team working on it so it has less influence on the main titles that are made by the main team.

Sometimes a company produces a dud game, which is not indicative of the company overall and they can come back and make something great again afterwards. Or vice versa, making a great game then going back to making slop (I.e. Ubisoft and Black Flag...)

Judging Larian based on one game, especially BG3 (Which is a title where they had to conform to the established DnD ruleset) can be misleading, especially if expecting more DnD rulesets in the future (Something that is not typical to Larian with their Divinity games not using it and the homebrew they did trying to move away from it and expressions from Sven about how they found it restrictive).

I expect that future Larian titles are most likely going to be different to BG3, with them going back to what they find comfortable in the Divinity style rather than trying to continue with DnD-esk rules. It just seems to be what they're more interested in based on how they tackled the DnD aspects of the BG IP.

The real question is are they going to be doing EA? Thus, will they continue their trend of making 1 really good and polished act and then forget about the other 2 (Or more) acts that comprises the game entirely?

Re: Disappointed in Larian

Taril#944617Yesterday at 03:38 PM

It depends on the gamer and their available time. It's not just ingame time to consider but the scope of real-time that moves along as you experience a game.

We can mince words on this, but I mostly agree. I had an opinion; "the game is amazing", it changed to "the game has some big problems" by Act 3 so that is my current opinion. I'm curious if Patch 7 will change my opinion again or not.

I mean I judge them on what experience I have as a player. It may or may not be what we get in the future and it's why I'll be waiting before I (maybe) buy rather than buy on release for full price. As I probably would have had the game maintained Act 1 quality on the whole game. The fact that it was so amazing for me in Act 1 (and Act 2) is the reason I got interested in the ones making the game, the company, and marked the name. I'm not saying I never want anything to do with them or their games ever again, only that I would be careful investing my quality time and money into them.

If they go with EA, I would be even more sceptical, you have said it yourself that they seem to have track record with EA act 3 going down the drain. After BG3 I believe you and share any scepticism.

Re: Disappointed in Larian

HenryDoughnut#944627Yesterday at 08:15 PM

Location: Belfast

Well, they worked on the game for multiple years. It is understandable they are more than ready to move on.

They never sold the game as „live service” so they are in no way bound to keep updating the game. The game also met with smashing critical and player reception - surely, not much work needs to done *wink, sarcasm, wink*

The only basis for expecting longer support would be D:OS1, 2 which came with major updates, but those came a year after the initial release with console ports - something Larian did on day one. Even so it seems to be they are supporting BG3 for about a year as well, while the rest of the team starts working on next project. So not even that far from Larian’s usual MO. That game’a quality diminishes as the game goes on is also part of the course (same case with D:OS1&2). But hey, they get better with it with every release so maybe one day they will stick the landing.

Re: Disappointed in Larian

HenryDoughnut#944628Yesterday at 08:45 PM

Yeah the ultimate conclusion I’ve come to is that I’m very unlikely to buy Larian’s next game at release, if ever (I hate the mechanics of DOS so if that’s what Larian likes over the dnd rules I probably won’t be there for it).

BG3 is still a great game and I’ve been replaying it over and over again, but much of the praise is definitely focused on the bigger picture and the game’s potential than what it delivers to you. It pretty quickly goes from an 11/10 game in Act 1 to something like a 7/10 by the time you reach the end. The later part of the game is pretty standard rpg fare that’s elevated to being really enjoyable by the how good the first part of the game was.